00:00:05 Sara Pawlikowska
My name is Sara Pawlikowska. I'm the co-founder at Grin.eco. And today my guest is Heather White, who is the book author, TEDx speaker, and eco anxiety expert. How are you doing today?
00:00:16 Heather White
Sara, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:19 Sara Pawlikowska
First of all, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? So what is it that you do?
00:00:24 Heather White
I am a writer and researcher on the mental health impacts of the climate crisis, especially how it impacts young people. And that term is eco anxiety. Other terms are climate anxiety, solastalgia, eco grief, climate doom, but just this idea that the backdrop to our lives is the climate crisis. It's here, it's not someplace in the future and young people see it and are very worried about the future that we're leaving them.
00:00:52 Sara Pawlikowska
I'm assuming that was also a big topic on the London Summit, the World Happiness Summit that you're here in [00:01:00] London for. So can you tell us a little bit about what is it, what's this event about?
00:01:04 Heather White
So the World Happiness Summit is a annual gathering of leaders in the field of psychology, positive psychology, purpose and well being. A lot of them work with Fortune 500 companies, for example, to try to address well being at work, because of course if people aren't fully engaged, they're not as productive.
00:01:24 Heather White
Also a lot of academics in this space. And sustainability is a backdrop of how people feel about the future. One of the professors there was talking about how this idea of everyone having a purpose and how important a purpose is to people's individual lives, and that he used the term a purpose is, basically launching an anchor into the future. But one of the things that I pointed out is that for young people, the future is so uncertain, and so that impacts their idea of purpose. And so this importance of making sure that you have a personal mission, and you're aligned with what you want to do, [00:02:00] but also having a larger social impact, I think more and more people are seeing how important it is that care of the planet is related to that deeply personal,investigation into why you're here, what you want to be doing, and this importance of service to others. So it was interesting. I was the only eco anxiety speaker per se, because this is a newer field when it comes to psychology. I'm not a psychologist. I'm a lawyer, and environmental activist. But I think it resonated with a lot of the folks there, especially putting this idea of your personal purpose into context of how you relate to the larger world.
00:02:35 Heather White
what were some of the most interesting highlights of the summit?
00:02:39 Heather White
Oh, what a great question, Sara. for me, the interesting highlights were the power of clarity in your personal mission. we also heard from Arthur Brooks, who, if you don't know him, he has a bestselling book that he wrote with someone named Oprah Winfrey, which I feel like most of your listeners probably know [00:03:00] who Oprah Winfrey is, but he is a professor at Harvard in the science of happiness.
00:03:05 Heather White
How interesting is that? And he talked about how for a lot of us, especially as parents, I'm in my fifties. I have two teenagers. We don't want the people we love to suffer, but that suffering on some level is part of the life experience and that you can't fully enjoy happiness until you've had challenges.
00:03:22 Heather White
So this idea of a life without challenges does not equal a life of happiness. And he also talked about the importance of having some type of faith, the importance of also having a mission outside of yourself in order to align with happiness. And I think, lots of your listeners who are focused on sustainability, that's easy for us.
00:03:42 Heather White
we know why we're in the field. We know why we're doing what we're doing. But I think that, the challenge for us, and the big takeaway from this conference for me, is that we need to be talking to more audiences like this. We need to get out of our sustainability bubble.
00:03:57 Heather White
And start reaching out to people who maybe not even consider themselves [00:04:00] environmentalists, and create an opportunity for them to see themselves in the climate movement, to see themselves as leaders in this space, and to understand that you are an environmentalist if you care about the future we're leaving the next generation.
00:04:14 Sara Pawlikowska
And then show them ways that they can be there for the next generation, and everyone shows up differently. so my big takeaway was I'm lucky to have clarity of purpose. A lot of people are searching. I'm lucky to have found this field of sustainability and climate action. But also that one of the things that I need to do moving forward is to reach out to other people who aren't in our field and bring them in and let them know that everyone is welcome and everyone is needed because this is the biggest challenge of our lifetime. Very beautiful. congratulations on your soon to be published book, "60 days to a greener life". it's going to be about eco anxiety. Then can you give us a little teaser?
00:04:56 Heather White
sure. The book is called "60 days to a greener life. [00:05:00] Ease eco anxiety through joyful daily action". And this, so my first book was called one green thing and it was. Almost like a self help book for climate action, this idea that we all have a unique role to play in climate action. And it's helping you discover your strengths and how you can show up.
00:05:17 Heather White
And that's one green thing. But "60 Days to a Greener Life" is almost a daily devotional or a daily reader. It's very short. It's like a five by seven, very cute. I use that adjective purposefully, a cute book. Where it's day one is the first chapter, day 60 is the last chapter.
00:05:35 Heather White
Every entry is like 450 words. There's a QR code and the idea, and most of the entries is a QR code, but the idea is that you spend 15 minutes each day thinking about sustainability and taking an action and the action could be, calling your member of parliament or your member of Congress about an issue you care about.
00:05:53 Heather White
But it also could be learning more about climate justice. It could be scheduling time outside in nature for your personal and [00:06:00] mental health. It could be journaling and thinking about an important natural area to you and how it might be changing over time because of climate and how you might want to work to protect it.
00:06:10 Heather White
So there's all these different ways that you can show up in the environmental movement. And it's a quick guide for action and an invitation for more people to be involved. And for those of us who've been in sustainability for a really long time. My hope is that it can help deal with burnout. Burnout is a huge challenge we have in sustainability.
00:06:28 Heather White
So many people, who do this work, it's a lot to bear when you read the science, when you know how little time we have, when you know what our future is going to look like. In this warming world, if we don't take global action within the next six years, so it is insignificant global action in the next six years.
00:06:45 Heather White
It's a heavy load. So my hope is that this book, " 60 days to a greener life" can help you reset, help you connect again to that deep purpose and help you manage your ego anxiety by exercising agency over what you can. and this idea, I think it's [00:07:00] important, Sara, because sometimes in the environmental movement when we talk about, we have to have systemic change.
00:07:05 Heather White
Which of course we do, right? We have to have systemic change. I think a lot of people feel, I don't matter. I don't work for the United Nations. I'm not, working in an environmental area in Parliament. So what does my individual behavior matter. your individual behavior drives culture change, and we forget how important culture changes for policies to work.
00:07:26 Heather White
These big solutions won't take hold unless we have people that are ready to accept them and to apply them and to make them real. And so that's why that individual action is key is because you're changing your culture in your community and in your family, and that's where this individual practice happens.
00:07:44 Heather White
So even for veteran activists, for people who've been doing this for years, our sustainable professionals, I'm hoping "60 Days to a Greener Life" is a great way to reset and put your individual action in context.
00:07:57 Heather White
A little bit similar to what you do in the [00:08:00] one green thing nonprofit organization. Yes, The nonprofit organization is onegreenthing.org. And what I have Sara, and I think you'll get such a kick out of this is I have an assessment. It's like Myers Briggs or Enneagram or strength finders. It's a personality assessment and I call it the service superpower assessment.
00:08:19 Heather White
And the idea is you take a five minute online quiz and it asks, who are you in service? How do you show up for the people you love? And I have seven different archetypes because not everybody shows up the same way, right? For example, Of the seven different archetypes. my older daughter, is a beacon, and this is the profile that loves to speak truth to power.
00:08:39 Heather White
She's the type of person, you give her a bullhorn, and she is gonna be like, with a bullhorn, or at the podium, or have a big poster, and is ready to organize and protest. But that's not how everybody shows up, right? My younger daughter is the spark, and the spark is the plus one. The person who, when you have something, you're like, go see this nature documentary with me.
00:08:59 Heather White
Could you please come to [00:09:00] this lobby day? Why don't you try out this new sustainable brand or read this article? The person who says like, sure, I'm in. And without the person who says, sure, I'm in, there's no movement. And then there's also, the influencer who's all about people. The wonk who can take really complicated ideas and translate them in ways that people can understand.
00:09:18 Heather White
A lot of us, like me, are wonks and that comes from the term policy wonk. We're wonks in the field, but we need to pair with influencers. We need to pair with another profiles called the sage, which is all about the spiritual connection to nature. So there's different ways that we all show up, but based on one of your archetypes, there's seven of them.
00:09:34 Heather White
I then match you to a daily practice of sustainability, a one green thing you do each day. And I know it sounds so simple. It's so simple, this idea of doing one thing intentionally for the environment each day. But that intentionality is important because it can help ease that anxiety you have about the future, because you know you're doing your part, even if you don't work for the United Nations.
00:09:53 Heather White
You know you're doing your part. And it also helps you with that culture shift. the first part of One Green Thing, [00:10:00] the non profit is to take this assessment. You can download a plan, it's a Kickstarter plan. I call it Climate Action Kickstarter plan of doing this daily practice. It's like yoga or meditation or running.
00:10:11 Heather White
this idea of taking care of yourself by caring for the planet. And then from there I give you ideas of how you can get involved in your community. And then of course we have a blog where we cover all kinds of breaking environmental issues.
00:10:23 Sara Pawlikowska
I actually took that assessment just out of pure curiosity and apparently I'm an adventurer.
00:10:28 Heather White
Ah, the adventurer is a great profile. So this is the person who embraces the physicality of the outdoors. This is the person who is very comfortable taking other people outside their comfort zone, like asking other people to take risks, it doesn't have to be a physical risk. It can be, an educational risk or Hey, let's have this new experience together.
00:10:48 Heather White
And of course, Adventurers are really important because of their creativity and because they can get people excited about climate action. And what's funny, I think you'll get a kick out of this too, Sara, is that one of my dear [00:11:00] friends has adventurer envy. She wants to be an adventurer, right? But she said to me, Heather, I'm not going to kayak.
00:11:06 Heather White
I'm not going to repel. I like hiking. I like walking in nature, but that's the extent of my experience is an adventurer. But then when she took the assessment, she found out she is a profile called the philanthropist, which is a big name for just the person who's the giver. And once she realized that she could show up in the environmental community by offering to, fundraise, host parties, volunteer.
00:11:29 Heather White
When she saw that she had a path, even though she wasn't someone who was going to take a lot of physical risks outside, she could see that, okay, I can do this. I can be part of this. And I think that's fun. And I told her like, you can still develop your inner adventurer. even if you haven't gone kayaking or even if you don't necessarily want to take people outside of their comfort zones right now, it's something that you can lean into over time.
00:11:50 Heather White
So I think that's a neat thing too, of seeing where you want to develop your different areas of strengths and service.
00:11:56 Sara Pawlikowska
I definitely had a very good experience doing the quiz in its [00:12:00] own. I thought it was very insightful. And I think what you do is very important because you try to narrow down a little bit by putting people in those archetypes. It helps to maybe focus on one thing specifically that helps you to actually but some effort into it instead of just being worried about what you could possibly do, cause there are so many things that we can do.
00:12:22 Heather White
That's That's such a good point, I think that a lot of people get the freeze response once they start understanding how big and complex this problem is and how much needs to change quickly. And also,I live with teenagers, so this idea when I have a small habit that I change, whether it's skipping the straw or bringing, my reusable mug, I get an eye roll, right?
00:12:41 Heather White
Oh, okay. great. Good for you. as if like your little action or, you took the tube instead of a car today, as if that action matters. but it does matter. And the reason it matters is because of that culture shift, especially if you do it with intentionality and you're talking about it.
00:12:56 Heather White
And also it can help you deal with your stress [00:13:00] about the future. a great example is skipping the straw, which of course my kids make fun of me for because it doesn't really matter when it comes to, mom, you've solved the climate crisis because you said no straw, please. And the reality is that all these people around the world putting a bright light on, plastic pollution in the oceans and talking about straws, if they hadn't done that, the United Nations wouldn't be talking about a treaty to eliminate single use plastic. this systemic change doesn't just happen, it only happens when individuals each day are moving toward it.
00:13:31 Heather White
And so I think that not only, like you were saying, narrowing down how you can show up, But also putting your individual behavior into context and the context isn't the individual carbon footprint that was created by the oil and gas company. PR execs were not going to fall for that. We didn't create this mess. The oil and gas companies did. It's all about fossil fuels, but we all have a part in the solution and how you show up and how I show up may be different. And that's okay. But if we're all every day moving in this [00:14:00] direction, we can have that culture shift we need. So these big solutions take hold rapidly.
00:14:04 Sara Pawlikowska
Other interesting thing that I saw doing my little research was your TEDx talk about eco anxiety. And so you mentioned those three pillars of eco anxiety. could you elaborate on that?
00:14:16 Heather White
Sure. So in my research, I identified three areas that I call the eco anxiety trifecta, the three contributing factors of why we're experiencing this. And I think for a lot of people, it may be a new term, but when they realize what it is, they go, Oh, that's how I've been feeling.
00:14:32 Heather White
This is this generalized anxiety that is, in the back of my mind. So it's helpful to have that name.the three factors, the first is generalized anxiety, especially when it comes to Gen Z, generalized clinical anxiety is on the rise and Gen Z, as are kids, but born after 1997 and mental health professionals globally say that they have a higher rate of anxiety.
00:14:52 Heather White
It's not just because we're more comfortable talking about mental health, although we are, it really is to the point where the Surgeon General of the United States put a, [00:15:00] warning out about how we really need to talk about teen mental health. The second is loneliness, which the UK has actually done a lot on loneliness and identifying, naming and also trying to address the loneliness epidemic.
00:15:14 Heather White
There is a survey every year from Cigna that looks at loneliness and before the pandemic and after the pandemic, the results were the same, which is really surprising to me, but it's true. Five out of ten baby boomers report chronic loneliness. And eight out of ten Gen Zers experience chronic loneliness.
00:15:31 Heather White
So we have a situation where young people are lonelier than the elderly. And then the third is a hyper awareness of the climate crisis because of social media. older person like me, I'm a Gen X er, we talk a lot about, our worries about bullying and, kids attention span and the dopamine hit of social media, but we forget How often young people are seeing in real time climate crisis disasters and extreme weather around the [00:16:00] globe reported by people their own age.
00:16:02 Heather White
So whether it be wildfires in Italy, whether it be heat waves in Greece, whether it be drought in Kenya, or whether it be, the New York City John F. Kennedy Airport flooding, these young people are sharing the experiences that they're seeing on the ground. And so young people have this hyper awareness of climate.
00:16:20 Heather White
And the impact that it has right now, not just in the future and that is a lot to carry. It is a lot of heartache and a lot of worry, and so those three factors are what makes eco anxiety a significant issue, and I think more and more we're going to start talking about it. And there was actually a report just a couple years ago that this was again before the pandemic.
00:16:41 Heather White
In the UK, 50% of child psychologists have clients that are showing up with generalized anxiety manifesting in this concern about the future and climate change. So it's really interesting that. even though eco anxiety is not in the DSM, it's not an official diagnosis. [00:17:00] More and more mental health professionals are seeing young people, but people of all ages that are really worried about the future.
00:17:06 Sara Pawlikowska
There's this balance between trying to focus on the person and what they can do while also being aware that you're not the source of the problem. But so do you think that we can actually have a tangible effect by doing those small things?
00:17:21 Heather White
I do, but it's not in the way most people think. The small things do matter. But I think what happens, especially when I'm talking to young people, they're like, I've even had some people, like on LinkedIn, which is how we met Sara, I was giving a talk with RARE, which is a global international conservation non profit.
00:17:39 Heather White
And there were a couple of people in the comments like, they were more polite than this, but they were basically saying, don't lie to people about individual action. We have to have systemic change. of course, we have to have systemic change. But a great example is in the United States.
00:17:53 Heather White
Last year, we passed the Inflation Reduction Act, which includes 400 billion dollars worth of, investments [00:18:00] into climate solutions. This includes EV infrastructure. This includes tax credits for individuals to get EV cars, tax credits for individuals to get solar panels, to have heat pumps, huge investments in solar and wind, 400 billion dollars.
00:18:15 Heather White
But if we don't have individuals sign up for these tax credits, if people aren't changing their behavior, this policy is not going to help us reduce our carbon pollution. And so you have to have both. the systemic change again doesn't happen. It's not enough to have the policy and the market solution if people don't adopt it.
00:18:33 Heather White
So it's both. the context is it's not either or because when we say systemic change, people assume someone else is going to solve it. It's systemic change. Okay. then it doesn't matter what I do. It does matter what you do. Because the intentionality is, an important driver of culture change.
00:18:51 Heather White
and I think, though, what you're getting at, Sara, is the guilt and the shame that a lot of people have when they realize, especially when you think about the global north, global [00:19:00] south, for G7 countries,the wealth disparity, income disparity, when you start thinking about climate justice in the racial context, when you start thinking about it intergenerationally.
00:19:09 Heather White
The reality is that the people who've contributed the least amount of carbon pollution are suffering the most and they will over time. And so there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of guilt. And so people aren't sure what to do with all that. of course you have to lobby, you know, you have to ask for change at the government level, whether it's your local government.
00:19:29 Heather White
Whether it's your, provincial government, state government, whatever that structure is, or at the national level and international level, but it's not all on you, but you do have a role to play in taking action, not only can shift the culture, which, you know,my drumbeat is that you're shifting the culture when you take action.
00:19:46 Heather White
It also can make you feel better because you're exercising agency on something. You may not be able to make sure that, 8 million Americans sign up for these tax credits. but you could go on a walk with a young person outside and ask them to put down their [00:20:00] phone and have them look up.
00:20:01 Heather White
That's one of my favorite quotes is a writer based here in the States called, Anne Lamont. And she was like, go outside, look up secret to life. Just this idea of bringing more nature into a young person's life. That's not going to solve the climate crisis, but it might make their day better. Might make your day better.
00:20:16 Heather White
Might help you get through what you need to get through.
00:20:19 Heather White
One last topic that I wanted to mention with you is being a great ancestor. So one of the driving forces for that kind of action you mentioned is gratitude, which for me was new. I haven't really thought about gratitude as something that could lead me into that kind of action. I love that question. Thank you, Sara. Gratitude's really powerful, and this is something that came up in this happiness, the World Happiness Summit was why I'm in London, is the power of gratitude, and in scientifically peer reviewed literature about how gratitude can help you lead a more fulfilling life and decrease cortisol levels, decrease blood pressure, overall, increase your sense of well being, but I [00:21:00] thought that was a very important context for why we should take climate action individually and systemically, at the policy and the market level. And one of the exercises I have, in "One Green Thing", and this is also part of, the non profit, but also the book, and I mention this in "60 Days to a Greener Life" because it's one of our principles, is this idea of embracing long term thinking.
00:21:21 Heather White
And really starting to think of ourselves as ancestors. it's an easy conversation for me to have with fifty year olds like me, but when I talk to a bunch of fifth graders who are 10, they're like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to think of myself as an ancestor, but this idea of, and so I have an exercise in the book and I talk about it in the Ted talk of thinking back on someone who's created an incredible experience for you. And it could be an ancestor, but it also could be a mentor. It could be a teacher. It could be someone that you even didn't know that created an incredible opportunity for you until it really reflect on that and reflect on the gratitude you have for them. [00:22:00] And then start to think about, 2050 and you are an older person and you're meeting with someone and you are the ancestor.
00:22:08 Heather White
what are they going to thank you for? What are they going to wish you had known? And this idea of us trying to think of ourselves in these different time periods, and how can we pay it forward? Because the reality is, As we all know, but we don't necessarily think about it, there were people who didn't know who we were in the past that created incredible opportunities for us.
00:22:27 Heather White
I just think in the, the suffragists here in the U. K. and the U. S., for example, so women could participate fully in democracy. there are people who didn't know us who wanted us to have a better life. the people who discovered incredible medical treatments, for example, insulin.
00:22:41 Heather White
how do we also, antibiotics. just, there's been so much. Development that people had this idea that intergenerationally there was a duty for change. And I think that taking that gratitude and combining it with this idea of an intergenerational duty or what I call [00:23:00] being an awesome ancestor is a powerful way to put our personal legacy and our global legacy in context.
00:23:08 Heather White
To have one takeaway from this. So what would be your top one tip on how to be a great ancestor starting today? Ah, how to be a great ancestor starting today. I think, so of course, I'm a lawyer by training, Sara, so it's going to be hard for me to say one thing,
00:23:25 Heather White
I
00:23:26 Heather White
but I will say for older people, ask the young people in your life how they feel about the future we are leaving them and really listen.
00:23:36 Heather White
Because one of the things I hear a lot is Heather, your kids have ego anxiety because you do environmental stuff. And with my friends who are not in sustainability, when I say, you know what, just have that conversation, it has been a game changing conversation for them. It is a way, and when they start to witness the pain and the worry that young people especially feel about the future, it changes how they view about climate action, how they view their [00:24:00] role.
00:24:00 Heather White
And it is an open invitation based on a very personal, deep family conversation or friend conversation about how to get involved. So that's the first thing I would say for older people. I think for, people, because again, the intergenerational partnership, I call it thinking beyond your age, is really important.
00:24:15 Heather White
I think the second thing, It's to really reflect on a moment, I talk about in my TED talk about my grandfather used to make me apple pie and it was such a simple thing that he did whenever I visited him. And then years later, I had this epiphany when I was out with my family,what a big deal it was for him to make me apple pie because he had Parkinson's disease and it took him an hour to get dressed in the morning.
00:24:35 Heather White
And I had really taken for granted that simple gesture of baking me a dessert when I was with him. something so simple became this moment of just deep gratitude for me. And this idea of what simple, and it might be a one green thing of this walk in nature. It might be testifying before your local, town council about having community composting, whatever it is, what are these small moments that we're going [00:25:00] to create in the next generation that are moments of gratitude. So I think this idea of having your gratitude practice, thinking about yourselves, visualizing what you want these, what I call future loved ones, the people you haven't met yet, what do you want them to thank you for is really powerful.
00:25:17 Heather White
And just leaning into this idea of intentionally doing one thing each day for the planet.
00:25:21 Sara Pawlikowska
Absolutely love that. That's such a good takeaway. Before we go, there's one person who really wanted me to give them a shout out because they're a big fan of yours and also the big fan of our podcast apparently. So just a big shout out to Zuzia from Poland. So thank you for supporting us.
00:25:40 Heather White
Heather, would you like to say hi? Yes. Hi, thank you so much for all of your support. What a wonderful community, Sara, that you're building and without support, like that, it's not possible. And I think that's one of the things it's a big leap of faith to have a podcast and to try to get your message out that it's a big leap of faith to write a book, and start a [00:26:00] nonprofit.
00:26:00 Heather White
And if we don't have wonderful supporters like that keeps saying, keep going. it's really hard to make it possible. So thank you.
00:26:06 Heather White
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today. Oh, Sara, it was such a pleasure. Let's keep in touch. And if any of your listeners want to stay in touch, I'm on Instagram at one green thing. our website's onegreenthing.org. And I'm also at Heather White official on Instagram.