00:00:05 Olga Murray

Hello everyone. Welcome to Grin.eco podcast. My name is Sara Pawlikowska. I'm the co founder at Grin.eco, and today my guest is Olga Murray, who is the founder at Private Goodness. How are you doing today, Olga? Hi, I'm doing great. Thank you for inviting me.

00:00:18 Olga Murray

Great. we have a lot of optimistic topics to talk about today. But just before we dive into that, can you tell us what climate optimism is and why are we talking about it? I think to me, climate optimism is the opposite of despair. I think a lot of people are saying that it's too late. There is no point anymore. And climate optimism is resisting that thinking. And it's a belief that we have a talent, imagination, capacity, resources to create a better world.

00:00:50 Olga Murray

I personally need this because if I feel like there is no point, then I'm useless. And if I believe that something is possible, then I can be way more productive and [00:01:00] helpful to others. So it's a very important I'm so glad to be discussing it with you.

00:01:04 Sara Pawlikowska

Oh, that makes sense. so can you tell us a little bit about private goodness, which you're the founder of? What is it?

00:01:12 Olga Murray

It's a climate, change and ESG consultancy. I started it, six years ago I don't know where six years went. and I work just helping companies and,not for profit organizations get their head around, but what climate changes and how they can help.

00:01:27 Sara Pawlikowska

That's my main mission. Yes. Yes. Yes. one of my things is I write every course I do is bespoke to each organization. So it's not as if I've got a one course and then I try to sell a hundred tickets or something. I write an individual course for each person and each organization. So it's about where they're based, what their sector is, they can tell me what their main worries are or their level of understanding.

00:01:46 Olga Murray

So somebody can know a lot, but want to learn a bit more. Somebody can tell me honestly, their, point of view now. And,we address all of that. I don't do scale. I do individually, which, is really great for me because I learned from each person [00:02:00] and because I have to write each course a couple of times a week, it means that I'm constantly researching and learning, which is exactly what I want to be doing.

00:02:08 Olga Murray

Mhm.I'm just curious whether there was more of an interest in that kind of consultancy. Would you say that maybe it's perhaps we're actually getting more information and maybe there's more social pressure as well to be aware of those thingsYes, absolutely. So sometimes when people come to my courses, they don't just wake up in the morning and think today I want to learn more about climate change, so let me come to Olga's course. What happens is, sometimes that people want to win a new contract and somebody asks them, what's your policy on climate change?

00:02:40 Olga Murray

And they say, Oh, we don't know. Or they have one and they're not sure if it's good enough. So they would come to me and I would help them. So there's pressure from the supply chain, which is so important I can see it's driving, education and action, or sometimes, it is that people who are, more senior in their profession have [00:03:00] children who are in school or at university who ask them at the dinner table, they say, what do you do about climate change at your work? And they don't know what to say to them. And they want to tell their kids, honestly, that this is what I do. And they want to, their kids know so much more than them. They also want to get to grips with what it's all about because we've got so much information in a way.

00:03:22 Olga Murray

You know what I'm saying? It's not some kind of corporate secrets, it's all out there. But what I do is I help explain this to people in a way that's relevant to them. And yeah, so the main pressures I see are from supply chain and from people's children.

00:03:34 Olga Murray

That's actually very interesting. fact that it's not only the external pressure from other businesses, but also from your own family, Yeah.

00:03:42 Olga Murray

why would you say that it is important to stay optimistic? Oh, what else can we do? so for me personally, I don't want to guilt or shame anyone. there's some methods out there that say, you don't do this, you don't do that. you better, get your act together.

00:03:58 Olga Murray

And that's a valid [00:04:00] point of view. And it's, all the different approaches are out there work for different people. But for me, I want to build a connection with people that's optimistic and that's hopeful. I want to see how we can work together. And first we have to be optimistic and believe that we can make a difference. And if we don't think that we can, then there's nothing else we can do. Whereas if we believe in ourselves, in our community, in our knowledge, then, from that, we can act. For me, I don't see how it's possible in the way I work, to act without hope. All right, but I think we can agree that it is a bit hard to be optimistic, especially withthis influx of negativity It's so hard. So I feel pessimistic and despondent every day. It's not that I get out of bed and I'm hurrah, let's create a better world. I turn on the news like everybody else. I see how terrible everything is with all this horrors of the world.

00:04:56 Olga Murray

I'm a very sensitive person. I get really upset by the things that I see [00:05:00] and hear and by the things that people share with me. So becoming optimistic and saying, despite all of this, 'look at the progress we've made so far and look at what other things we can do' is an effort.

00:05:12 Olga Murray

So I'm talking about optimism resistance, because without this effort, you would just feel sad and you would feel like there is no point to it all because it's all becoming worse and worse, but I feel that,I am in a position of privilege so that I have this time, I have the opportunity to learn and to teach and to share and all those things that I do,I can, where lots of people are too busy struggling with the everyday effects of climate change to take this time to do what I do. So, in the global north, we are responsible for 92 percent of emissions in excess of the planetary boundary countries in the global south.

00:05:52 Olga Murray

They haven't caused this. They're still within their fair share of the boundary. But they're suffering about 90 percent of economic cost of climate [00:06:00] breakdown and 98 to 99 percent of climate related deaths. when you know this you could say it's too late. But that would be a very privileged position. It wouldn't be using your privilege well. In fact, to say, yes, this is really bad, but we are much better in the global north, much better off than others. So we must. get ourselves together and act. And about how to stay optimistic, as I say, it's very hard. So where I find inspiration in nature,like so many people and just sometimes, just like looking out of the window and looking at the trees, taking a little rest, I find inspiration in, young people, in older people. And basically, it's about reality. It's about stepping out away from the news, away from, all this information and talking to people and breathing fresh air. I think is the one way how we resist all this negativity, because when you do that, you can get a little bit of perspective and you can feel a bit grateful for what you have.

00:06:56 Olga Murray

And then. more powerful to act.

00:06:58 Sara Pawlikowska

[00:07:00] I

00:07:02 Olga Murray

what you said about not being optimistic saying, Oh yeah, This is it. This is just bad. Let's just move on. That's basically being in a place of privilege. And I've never actually thought about it that way, but I think it's a very powerful message

00:07:16 Olga Murray

to see it that way. In a way, saying that is similar to denial. It's saying, I am so clever that I understand the problem, but I'm not going to do anything about it, because it's too late. It says you might as well not understand and not do anything about it. The fact is the same.

00:07:32 Sara Pawlikowska

where does eco anxiety come into play with all this? it feels like eco anxiety is this overwhelming feeling of helplessness. And often what I hear from people is that the more they learn about what's happening, the more eco anxiety they get. So where does that come into play?

00:07:49 Olga Murray

in fact, there was a survey done, Hannah Richard, she quotes it in her book. "not the end of the world", where most people that was surveyed feel that humanity is doomed and they feel that they [00:08:00] don't have a a bright future ahead of them, they feel sad and eco anxiety is a major factor of it.

00:08:08 Olga Murray

And I think with that, we should have some responsibility as, environmental professionals and people in this field about the way we talk. Because if we constantly only talk doom and gloom, because, what we're saying is not It's not a lie, there are real problems, but if we just say this is bad, it has an effect, our words are powerful, and I think we can tell people the truth about the challenges we are facing, the world is facing, and that we are going to face, and say It is bad, and we have made amazing progress, and there is a lot to do.

00:08:45 Olga Murray

All of these things are true, but if you just focus on the negative alone, then you do put this burden on young shoulders, and you say, the ice is melting, the planet is on fire, and,is there really a [00:09:00] future for you? There's nothing to look forward to, but it's not true.

00:09:02 Olga Murray

There is a future and we are capable of creating a better world.

00:09:06 Sara Pawlikowska

Mm hmm.

00:09:08 Olga Murray

So, we need to make sure that we are very careful with our language.

00:09:11 Sara Pawlikowska

So one of the things you mentioned about, staying positive was nature, exposing yourself to nature. What are other tips on staying positive?

00:09:20 Olga Murray

so my son is two years old and one of his first long sentences was, I see white clouds. And I thought it was so lovely, we were in the garden and I looked up and I thought I haven't looked at the clouds. for years. Just, how you're used to when you're trying to look at the clouds and think of which shapes they are and what do they look like.

00:09:39 Olga Murray

And it's so powerful. Just like in the movie,look up, just looking up in the sky. so how else can we cope? And it's relevant to your other point about eco anxiety as well. There is a wonderful book by Tricia Hurst that I read recently called Rest is Resistance. And actually, when I talk about optimism as resistance, I've taken it from there.

00:09:58 Olga Murray

And she says, [00:10:00] Love in ourselves and each other deepens our disruption of dominant systems. They want us unwell. Fearful, exhausted and without deep love because we are easier to manipulate and we're distracted, but what is true and real, and I want to encourage everyone I speak to in the field and particularly young people to take the time to rest.

00:10:20 Olga Murray

Yes, our problems are urgent, but if we are tired, then we won't be as effective. so we need to switch off the news, switch off some of the things and just do whatever it is you need to rest and then you will feel better and you will be more capable. So when we talk a lot about urgency of climate action and It's true.

00:10:40 Olga Murray

We need to act, Simon Sharpe says five times faster in some field areas, we need to have quite a lot faster to avoid some of the most dangerous effects of, climate change base is really important. And, we're now in this window where it's very important to act. Having said that, say we fail and we don't go [00:11:00] get to net zero and we don't avoid some of the steeping points and climate change becomes way more dangerous, by 2030, by 2040. What then? Do we then give up and we say, we had a window. We didn't do it. we tried a little bit? No, we continue protecting the planet and the people, particularly the most vulnerable people, all of our lives.

00:11:23 Olga Murray

If all goes terribly wrong and there's one tree standing on the whole planet. Do we say, there is no point. There's only one tree. No, we go and we protect that tree. We have this deadline that we impose for ourselves for good reason, but this work is for the rest of our lives.

00:11:39 Olga Murray

And if it's going to be for the rest of our lives, then we need to find ways to make it sustainable within us. And just constantly talking about doom and gloom isn't going to be it. We need to do that a bit, because it's true because of scary facts, but also rest and congratulate ourselves and others on [00:12:00] successes that we are making. But so then congratulating ourselves on success. But how do we stay optimistic, pat ourselves in the back, but without being smug about it? Or maybe we can be a bit smug, why not? Maybe if we do something, if we do something right, why not,maybe sometimes you do something amazing, maybe you should feel pleased with yourself. We are very good at beating ourselves down that we need no help with,just being a bit like, yeah, go us.

00:12:28 Sara Pawlikowska

So we need to be more smug then.

00:12:32 Olga Murray

Yeah, sure. Why not?

00:12:33 Sara Pawlikowska

I just want to give a couple of reasons to feel optimistic about some of the progress we made, about being smarter society. In one decade, solar and wind energy have gone from being the most expensive source of energy to the least expensive source of energy.

00:12:48 Olga Murray

So the price of electricity has declined by 89%. The price of onshore wind declined by 70%. It is now cheaper than coal. So 10 years ago, that was [00:13:00] inconceivable.the progress that's been made is incredible. I started studying at university 18 years ago, not studying law, particularly human rights law.

00:13:08 Olga Murray

it wasn't the environment, but back then the idea that solar would be a viable energy source and it would be cheaper than coal. And that, it didn't seem possible and I was not working in the field, but I was living with the climate, scientists and we're talking about all those things that was not even on the radar.

00:13:27 Olga Murray

And now this is our reality. Now some of the developed countries come through had to burn fossil fuels to achieve the progress that we had. that's just our history, but now some of the countries can develop using clean fuel. Like they have this option now and it's not just a better option for the planet, it's cheaper. So it's both a green choice and economical choice. That's amazing. That is a really massive progress. And from now on, it's only going to get cheaper, more available. There are issues with the solar panels, it's not all perfect. So somebody says [00:14:00] the fossil fuels is energy from hell and renewables is energy from heaven.

00:14:06 Olga Murray

It's not quite there, there are issues, but the way they're being addressed is really good. I think it's a cause for celebration. Another thing is,a reason for hope for me is that we are not alone. Another survey was done of 130, 000 individuals from 125 countries found that 86 percent of people endorse pro climate social norms.

00:14:27 Olga Murray

So most people around you and most people around the world, most people in most countries agree with you and with me, that climate is an issue and they agree that we should have poor climate norms. again, people who are benefiting from the status quo, who want you to be desperate, want you to feel alone.

00:14:47 Olga Murray

They want you to feel your own anxiety, feel everything about this changing and scary world alone. But you're not alone. And I'm not alone. All of these people, the vast majority agree and have the same concerns. [00:15:00] So,it's hard, but if we find a way to make more connections online and offline, I think we will feel better and more productive about this whole thing.

00:15:11 Olga Murray

Mhm. a little mix of that eco anxiety and a little bit of being smug about what we do right. Do you think that mixture can perhaps, induce greenwashing or invite greenwashing? Yes, there was an article in the Guardian yesterday that said just 57 companies are linked to 80 percent of greenhouse gas emissions since 2016. So 57 companies, 80 percent of gas, greenhouse gas emissions. I don't think that this company should feel optimistic. I think this company should feel bad. So when I talk about optimism, I talk to normal people like you and me, and,probably most people are now following. I am people who are responsible for this much damage, If they're the ones doing the most harm, they're [00:16:00] responsible for the majority of the effort to clean this up.

00:16:03 Olga Murray

And again, it's going to be with regulation, taxation, pressure from their families, from their children. and parents and I don't know, people who they care about. So therefore they should think if they want to be optimistic about their future, they should do it.

00:16:17 Olga Murray

And so I think that if you have an article from like a fossil fuel company that says, Oh, we're all optimistic. It's no. So I should clarify that my message is not for these companies. It's for everybody else.I want to say about greenwashing, it's a lot of. Good effort has been done on, on making it tighter.

00:16:35 Olga Murray

So companies can't get away with saying just the nonsense that they used to say, in the last decade. Now they're saying, in the EU in particular, there's new legislation prohibiting that, and the ASA are becoming, stricter about it. And some of it is just so ridiculous, isn't it?

00:16:51 Olga Murray

I'm sure you can think of many examples of greenwashing, this is silly.but there is something again, when you talk about [00:17:00] smaller, companiesand individuals if you say something is really bad, then you're cynical and then you're clever, where if you say that something is really good, then you're probably stupid.

00:17:11 Olga Murray

It's because there's this kind of assumption that if you say, Oh, this is really, well, there's like, you probably just haven't thought about it hard enough.

00:17:18 Sara Pawlikowska

That's true.

00:17:19 Olga Murray

That's the way people think. So when you are optimistic and you say you make a positive statement, you open yourself up to criticism because loads of people will come out and say, Oh, how about this? And what about that? So we are very ready to jump down the throat of anybody who wants to say anything positive.

00:17:40 Olga Murray

So I'm absolutely against greenwashing of course, because it just slows down our progress and it's annoying, but I think that we should, maybe be a bit nicer to companies not to the 57 ones, but to the others who are Trying their best or the honest ones, if they do something and, there's never enough budget. As a [00:18:00] consultant, I feel like I'm never able to give an absolutely perfect advice.

00:18:04 Olga Murray

there are always limitations, but I feel like we should be more encouraging of people who try rather just as our default to be like to find flaws.

00:18:14 Olga Murray

you mentioned that it is not always the optimistic way. Like we can always be optimistic. Is it okay to not be optimistic about climate? yes, please, I think if you always try to be optimistic, it'll be very hard. All feelings are valid. All feelings are welcome. I encourage people to include optimism as part of their routine.so if you read something and it's very sad or if you hear of something or you try something and it fails and you feel sad and despondent and desperate about it,that's a valid feeling and, stay there as long as you need to process it.

00:18:52 Olga Murray

but also read about things that have gone right. Think about how far you have come as a person [00:19:00] in your development, how much more knowledgeable you are, how much more educated you are, how much more connected you are than you were before and I think it would be wise to also acknowledge how far we've come in your life, but yes, feel whatever you feel, just feel optimism some of the time, and that will already be great progress,

00:19:18 Olga Murray

So that leads me to my two part question. what are some of the things that you would recommend for someone who might not feel optimistic today, but they want to do something towards a better change for climate. So what would you recommend? maybe not today, but in the next two years, 3 billion people are going to vote. This is an unprecedented time. There's a lot of elections going on in, in Bangladesh, in India, in the UK, in the States. Very soon, all of this, potential change of power will be happening. So people have an opportunity to vote for parties that support the environment rather than, try to destroy it and [00:20:00] you can wait until the election, but up until the election, you can also talk to your local candidates, I don't know, organizers around and see what their views are on green policies and on climate justice and just transition, all of that.

00:20:13 Olga Murray

about what to do, we need to think, where is our power? We have power as voters, those of us who can vote. We have power in our money, again, those of us who have pensions, for example. So you might not have any money on your bank account right now, but if you were ever employed, then you probably have some kind of pension pot.

00:20:33 Olga Murray

if you don't now, you will in the future and making your pension green is 21 times more powerful than giving up flying, going veggie and switching energy provider all together. So money is really important in all this. Are they pension providers is spending or banks spending money on financing fossil fuel developments?

00:20:57 Olga Murray

Or are they spending them on, renewable energy [00:21:00] and climate adaptation, So if you move your money, you might not think, even my pension pot is not very much. If you're involved in an organization and you encourage them to green their pension, that can be millions of pounds.

00:21:11 Olga Murray

That's something you can influence. And there is an organization called make your money matter that has very easy templates for how to do that.they're great actually, they've got a fantastic videos as well. So a lot about what we can do actually in climate is what we should not do.

00:21:27 Olga Murray

so is we can consume less, so not buy so much. Fast fashion's just out of control. People buy too much of things and then throw them away. So what can we not buy? And, obviously there are essentials. I'm not suggesting we should just, give up on consumerism altogether, but on purchasing anything altogether.

00:21:46 Olga Murray

But think about it. Do I really need this? Because everything you buy has some kind of environmental impact. consuming less meat and dairy as well is always a good idea. I, for example, don't eat any red meat, ever, but [00:22:00] other dairy, I just consume less.

00:22:02 Olga Murray

So for example, I don't eat ice cream in the evening and it's good for me, but it's also, it's like small steps to reduce. And then,I think it's important to find people who give you energy, who inspire you to make you feel more powerful. So let's say about finding your tribe. And I think it's about, who helps lift you up.

00:22:21 Olga Murray

And then once you feel uplifted, once you feel empowered, who can you lift up? Because, pulling people out of poverty is climate work, climate adaptation work. But it's not top down this movement and our efforts, it's going to be about how can we bring everyone, on board.

00:22:39 Olga Murray

it's about finding people who help you and help others.that sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Basically, there's lots you can do and there's lots you can not do. and whenever you do or not do something that's in a positive direction, maybe just be a bit smug about it.

00:22:52 Sara Pawlikowska

Like we said, celebrate doing the right thing. So the second part of this question would be about [00:23:00] books, because that's actually how we met as well for some book recommendations. So what are your favorite books for climate optimism?

00:23:08 Olga Murray

so many. I read a lot of books. I read about almost a hundred books a year sometimes, I read books from the library offline. again, it's about resistance, being away from the internet, being away from this kind of negativity and focusing on someone's work and someone's thoughts is so important.

00:23:26 Olga Murray

what can I recommend? Saving us, Catherine Hayhoe, she talks about climate scientist's case for hope and healing in a divided world.I have somewhere here, Hannah Richie, who wrote a book called "not the end of the world" where she talks about some of the progress we've done,

00:23:45 Olga Murray

and she also talks about, some things that we say every day that are not quite right. she dispelled some myths,I like the book, actually called "Climate Optimism", it's from Zahra Biabani. It's a very short [00:24:00] book, it's 200 pages, you can read it in one sitting, and she's a young climate activist, , ,who does, Great job as well.

00:24:08 Olga Murray

I think that's to start with. I could go on, but, you can look at my, private goodness, blog as well, where I have an article about some of the best books. But yeah, there, there are loads out there and thank goodness, I don't know what I would do without them.

00:24:22 Sara Pawlikowska

Yeah. Basically, this is a very good article. I read that as well and I need to thank you for all those recommendations for our Grin.eco page. We'll definitely be checking out those books and making summaries

00:24:32 Sara Pawlikowska

to kind of finish off and nicely wrap it up, I'd like to ask you what your message of hope would be for the people who are not so optimistic currently about our climate situation.

00:24:45 Olga Murray

I am going to quote Christina Figueres, who actually wrote another book that I should recommend, "the future we choose". Christina Figueres, who was a very impressive diplomat, she was, behind the Paris Agreement.

00:24:54 Olga Murray

She said: when you're faced with hard realities, look at them with clarity, [00:25:00] but also know that you're incredibly lucky to be alive at a time when you can make a transformative difference to the future of all life on earth. So climate change is not something that we win or we lose. It's about the direction of travel.

00:25:16 Olga Murray

Every day we choose a new future. And if we are optimistic, then like Christina, we can together create a better future. she says so, and she's very clever and other,people who have achieved great things say so. And it is possible for all of us to choose a better future.let's do that.

00:25:37 Sara Pawlikowska

Very beautiful. Olga, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It was very optimistic and informative.