00:00:05 Sara Pawlikowska

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Grin.eco Podcast. My name is Sara. I'm the co founder and today my guest is Michael, who is the sustainability officer at Earthbound. How are you doing today, Michael?

00:00:17 Mikael Hietala

I'm great. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

00:00:19 Sara Pawlikowska

So first of all, can you tell me what is it that you do, Michael?

00:00:23 Mikael Hietala

I'm the sustainability officer at Earthtown sneakers. So we make bio based sneakers from 95 percent natural materials at the moment, and all the time working towards, 100 percent fully composable, that'll be the end goal. And the main part of my work is focusing on ensuring that what we do, On a day to day basis aligns with the original mission of the company.

00:00:48 Mikael Hietala

So to make a product that's light on the earth and light on a human feet as well. So we have certificates that say that our shoes are completely non [00:01:00] toxic and then we have low impact materials and the life cycle analysis that I've done to show that also we have a low impact on the environment.

00:01:07 Sara Pawlikowska

I would like to talk to you about fast fashion, planting trees versus forestation and so on. but before we jump into that, I saw that your academic background is in biological sciences. So I was curious, how did that develop into,sustainability interests.

00:01:26 Mikael Hietala

so I was always very interested in nature growing up. It was just as long as I can remember from first memories from preschool was looking at caterpillars in the playground and then later getting more into just watching all the nature documentaries I could, and then trips to the zoo with the family and.

00:01:44 Mikael Hietala

All this just nurtured this love for the Earth and for nature. And then it was a natural step to study biological sciences because I was more interested in really understanding how our bodies work and how natural ecosystems work. And [00:02:00] then throughout my studies, sustainability kept becoming more and more of a passion for me.

00:02:04 Mikael Hietala

So then it wasobvious that I would reach it at some point, but when I was, finishing the studies in the early 2010s, it was still more of a hobby. I feel like there were a few sustainability managers, but it wasn't such a clear cut career. So I did a few other things after graduating.

00:02:22 Sara Pawlikowska

I didn't go the common academia route, but yeah, through my different career moves. I finally ended up in sustainability three years ago as a professional field, but I've been staying up to date all this time on what's happening in the field. Oh, that sounds great. I was personally curious because I also have some background in biological sciences. just to make sure we're on the same page. What is fast fashion?

00:02:48 Mikael Hietala

That's a good question. So I would say fast fashion is consuming more than we really need and having multiple pairs of sneakers, multiple [00:03:00] coats, a whole wardrobe full of jeans, tens of t shirts, stuff like this that it's exciting for a few weeks. you see something you wanted and then it just ends up naturally at the back of the closet.

00:03:14 Mikael Hietala

and I think there was something that in the last few decades,we buy 60 percent more clothes, but use them for half the time compared to early 2000s. So even in that short of a time, not 1950s or something. So I think that speaks volumes. even at EarthBound, sometimes,if we have a darker day, we get a bit pessimistic about the current state of affairs and we're also saying that we have the perfect method for moving around. It's just that these different products have been invented to sell to us.

00:03:41 Sara Pawlikowska

So if you could have just a black leather pair of sandals and that would be fine, but sneakers and different types of footwear have been invented for different purposes. you really need all these different types of footwear? Probably not. Probably not, but I'm also curious whether [00:04:00] there are some products that are more carbon heavy than others?

00:04:04 Mikael Hietala

the footwear industry is quite a good example of that, because based on some of the previous life cycle analysis and a pair of sneakers, multiple pieces of different thermoplastics fused together, it's about 14 kilograms of CO2 per pair of sneakers.

00:04:18 Mikael Hietala

So if you have five pairs, that's around then 70 kilos of CO2 that you have in your closet. So they're quite intensive. And then I also like to fight against carbon tunnel vision, in my line of work. So then you look at, for example, leather products.

00:04:34 Mikael Hietala

So those are very chemical heavy. Maybe not energy intensive, but then they really destroyed the surrounding environment near those processing plants where they use all types of heavy metals and different chemicals to soften the leather, to make it like a homogeneous product, to then preserve it.

00:04:53 Mikael Hietala

So footwear is still lagging behind. that's why we're working to disrupt the industry.

00:04:58 Sara Pawlikowska

I will definitely like to [00:05:00] talk about carbon tunnel vision in a second as well, but on a scale where we have those different problems such as transportation, which is also a big thing with carbon emissions. So where does fast fashion fit into that scale? How big of an issue it is?

00:05:15 Mikael Hietala

I don't have the exact numbers. I'm not a hundred percent positive if these are the real facts. But what I saw at some point was that fast fashion is around 10 percent of all emissions. And what I am sure about is that footwear is just, a bit less than all airplane traffic on a global level.

00:05:37 Mikael Hietala

it's around 2 percent of all emissions, and airplane traffic is something close to 3 percent of all emissions. that also puts it into perspective. We talk about flying. We talk about cutting down on this and then just footwear industry billions and billions of pairs of sneakers So it's also a sizable amount of the emissions that humans produce

00:05:55 Sara Pawlikowska

Yes, definitely, it is something that doesn't sound so scary because it's [00:06:00] fashion, it's clothes, we all use them. But is just buying less clothes. Is that enough of an approach?

00:06:06 Mikael Hietala

tough question again, you could argue both sides, but I think just yeah, everyone making a conscious effort It's easy to get frustrated. I'm just one person on this planet, how much effect do my actions have? But when you scale millions of people, cutting back a bit and maybe going for, vintage clothes, secondhand clothes, and then looking at high quality products that are going to last five, six years, much better than buying a new pair of sneakers every year, or a new bunch of sweaters, jackets, stuff like this.

00:06:37 Mikael Hietala

I used to be into Nike sneakers, but I've made some conscious choices and now I haven't bought new pairs. It's just, working against your norm. And then at some point you realize like that wasn't all that difficult now, was it?

00:06:51 Sara Pawlikowska

But then again, if we go to the store, is there a way for us to check whether those claims are more reliable or less [00:07:00] reliable? The claims of, being more sustainable using recyclable materials,

00:07:04 Mikael Hietala

Yeah. There's a lot of information out there. That's also the problem. There's lots of different certificates, lots of ways that companies can try to get around it. But I think if it's clearly explained, it has to be then verified the amount of recycled content in a sneaker perhaps, and then you look for different certificates like what we have this Ecotex B Corp status.

00:07:26 Mikael Hietala

You have then also Ecolabel in EU. there's different, cradle to cradle. there are different, very reliable. So you can have a quick Google search and find the most reliable certificates and then look for those in the products. And then just quickly fact check what you see at the stores.

00:07:41 Sara Pawlikowska

so let's just assume that we have all the resources and we have all those, people in place that we need to make a change. What will we need to end fast fashion completely?

00:07:53 Mikael Hietala

I guess that the main thing would be to have some well known voices talking about the problem at hand. So you could have [00:08:00] the NGOs on one side, Greenpeace and such. And then you could have, known actors, perhaps musicians or something telling people, Hey, I'm going to make a change.

00:08:09 Mikael Hietala

I'm going to go six months without buying anything new. And I think I'm going to feel fine. I think something to really shift the mindset because that's the companies are looking for profits, they need to sell more, they need to think of, new styles. They need to find people and influencers to promote those styles.

00:08:24 Mikael Hietala

And it's just a vicious cycle. So to break that cycle, you would need the people involved. In it to make a change.

00:08:30 Sara Pawlikowska

Definitely. hopefully we are seeing a little bit of a change there as well, So you mentioned carbo tunnel vision definition of the day. What is it? /

00:08:39 Mikael Hietala

Well, that's this kind of lately in the last decade, now that there's been more talks about sustainability, so then it has naturally, focus on one part because you need to have a clear definition totalk with the community about it. And that's just gravitated toward carbon emissions.

00:08:55 Mikael Hietala

And that's the main driver is a greenhouse effect is driving climate change. We have [00:09:00] more of this gas, it's measurable, it's easy to see where it's coming from, but at the same time some activities that maybe don't have such high carbon emissions, then are affecting other systems.

00:09:11 Mikael Hietala

So now we're talking more about the planetary boundaries. So you have ocean acidification, you have biodiversity loss, you have social inequality. which is causing these migrant crises and this struggles in society. So it's more than just carbon emissions. that's that kind of thinking about how I can choose what to do in my life to tackle different things, rather than just measure everything I'm doing in terms of the carbon emissions,

00:09:38 Mikael Hietala

a good example would be agriculture. you could think, Oh, okay. I've swapped this meat out. I saw somewhere that's very carbon intensive. Oh, I have almond milk now. And I don't need those as much meat. Okay. that's great.

00:09:48 Mikael Hietala

That's fine. But then you should be also thinking that you should be buying organic, products from local markets because then you could be instead buying, some vegetables that are grown in an intensive way with [00:10:00] lots of, pesticides, which affect the environment and affect humans.

00:10:05 Mikael Hietala

I was about to ask, is there any other areas that are very prone to this kind of tunnel vision. I think it's at the moment, just this carbon emissions, because this is how we measure our progress in large companies. Then measure what they're doing. it's important, obviously, but it's also important to think in a bigger picture, a more comprehensive way of what we're doing to the environment and to our society in general.

00:10:30 Sara Pawlikowska

So we try to do something well, but then it's the negative side of, of a good action. Yeah, maybe not so negative, but just that it's not as good as we think it's not enough or maybe this is not going to switch everything around, just focusing on how my actions have decreased carbon emissions. Fair enough. All right. Let's talk about trees now. So planting trees versus forestation and preserving forests. back in the day, it seemed [00:11:00] like planting trees was thought to be the most eco friendly thing that you can do, and it does sound like a very, popular marketing tool as well, but is it all that it's cracked up to be?

00:11:12 Mikael Hietala

Definitely not. that also has to be verified and followed and communicated well, what's happening, because I remember at some point seeing some companies, deciding that they're going to reforest large parts of India, perhaps we can use that as an example that was on the news a decade ago, maybe So you gather money and you buy the saplings and you find the site. Everything looks great. You plant the trees. But then in many cases, that's where it ends and you need to take care of these plants and you need to ensure that they're the correct species for the environment and you need to come back every once in a while to make sure that the conditions are fine for them.

00:11:48 Mikael Hietala

And if they need perhaps, more nutrients or more water, you can just plant saplings and assume that in 10 years there'll be a forest. So there's many cases in which then. Most of them died [00:12:00] and then this capital was wasted when it could have been used in a much more responsible manner.

00:12:05 Sara Pawlikowska

So what about forest preservation then?

00:12:08 Mikael Hietala

Yeah, that's my big thing. That's what I'm passionate about And every time I go into a forest like old growth forest is just so peaceful so amazing you have all these different plants on different levels. You have birds you have all these insects On the ground around you. It's perfect.

00:12:25 Mikael Hietala

we see also that there's still a lot of deforestation. Brazil turned the volume down a lot, luckily with the new president, but still, they decreased deforestation, but it's still happening to drive the soybean industry that's being used For the cattle or on a smaller level just so farmers from rural areas can make some income by growing some beef so I'm really passionate about finding good projects that are really looking at the mostnot maybe pristine, you can't even use that word anymore, but the most, intact [00:13:00] ecosystems, because those are the big carbon sinks.

00:13:03 Sara Pawlikowska

They have a complete different dynamics of sequestering carbon than a five year old, small plot of land with small trees. It's a whole different level. Yeah. I feel like that's the part that we don't really think about that often. We just feel good about planting more trees, what kind of action do we need then?

00:13:23 Mikael Hietala

I'll just clarify that there's nothing wrong with planting trees. Like I think it has to go in tandem. That's what many of these things that there have to be actions being done at the same time, but not oh, no, we lost one acre of old growth forest.

00:13:35 Mikael Hietala

And now we're going to replant one acre. That's not the same, but planting trees is great. we have some community programs here too. And it's a great way to just, build that community spirit and also share knowledge about the importance of trees. I have nothing against it, it's important to work in tandem.

00:13:52 Mikael Hietala

And that could be another tunnel vision, replanting. Versus looking at the ecosystem level, Yes. [00:14:00] Obviously, but, so then,what kind of action do we need the most in that area then? I think there needs to be partnerships between private companies and government entities to find how to funnel capital that, that is set aside for nature preservation in the correct way, because there's also differences in prices in the capital cost of preserving an hectare somewhere. So it's much more expensive in Europe than it is somewhere in Southeast Asia or Africa, where they have the mangroves that are very important for the local communities. And they're also a great mechanism for filtering the water there and keeping biodiversity levels high.

00:14:42 Sara Pawlikowska

So I think the main mechanism is more awareness for people to help out on projects, but then maybe a better mechanism of how to funnel the capital that someone is ready to give to these causes to worthwhile projects, not just a transaction type that, okay, we would like to [00:15:00] just give this amount of donation and then, That's it, not follow up, not think about what the goal is, just, okay, here, now we feel good, we gave this amount of money, and, oh, great, we did something good for the planet, where it could have been five times more effective. So that leads me to my next question. what is your current project that you're working on?

00:15:17 Mikael Hietala

we would like to do the water use life cycle analysis for a pair of sneakers. We are developing some new styles that could be potentially circular, that could be recyclable, but we still need think because there's lots of interesting materials, we need to test how they work and then make good comparisons of the different pros and cons of some of these, that there are some interesting materials.

00:15:42 Mikael Hietala

But then, because we're working at such a high bio-based level, if we would take, for example, a new outsole that is 65 percent bio based, then that would really drop The content. So we have a lot of projects going on. We're looking at new materials and looking with partnerships in Europe. [00:16:00] And then I'm also always, ready to talk about sustainability with anyone such as this interesting podcast, and work with, startups that are in the clean tech space, nature preservation space, because that's where the innovation that we need comes from most times, if you think of everything, that's most of the innovation, they come from startups. They come from those people who are ready to disrupt the system. So how I can support people.

00:16:24 Sara Pawlikowska

the love of biotechnology, there were some different projects such as, for example, algae as material to make clothes. So I'm curious whether there are some exciting biomaterials, for shoe wear that maybe you want to share.

00:16:40 Mikael Hietala

yeah, there's a interesting material from a pineapple husk, pineapple waste. when you have to cut off the husk of the pineapple. So someone made like a textile from that. That's very interesting. And I believe that it's being used in a sneaker. But that's, I think that they're have everything, used in their own products. And then we [00:17:00] also have from my home country, from Finland, there's a company called Spinova that makes, fibers from, lignin from tree biomass.

00:17:09 Mikael Hietala

And they did a project with Adidas where they made a sweatshirt completely out of this material. And it was also the natural color that it comes out with. So it was this interesting tan color. So that's an exciting one too.

00:17:21 Sara Pawlikowska

sounds really nice, there is so much potential with different materials that are, biodegradable, obviously, but also they might be comfortable to wear, which is just very exciting approach. But Just to finish off now, it's a very open question, but if you could ensure that there is some sort of change, actually happening, whether it business or law or biodiversity, whatever it could be, I'm curious, what would you be the most excited to see?

00:17:53 Mikael Hietala

I would be the most excited to see, these popular, figures in different [00:18:00] entertainment industries like these pop stars and I don't know footballers movie stars them like leo dicaprio getting behind the change Of the whole system That would be like super exciting to see because I think then that would really push it again among the young consumers, which are probably, I don't have the statistics, but I would assume that they are the kind of the big culprit because they're so drawn to trends.

00:18:26 Mikael Hietala

So that would be like, if I would wake up tomorrow and see a few people promoting different green products that are actually very circular, actually very innovative, that would be like a top thing. Now, if I can dream, now, if I can dream big for a moment,

00:18:40 Sara Pawlikowska

All right. that's a fair point. Mikael, thank you so much for the conversation. I truly enjoyed it and thank you for joining us.

00:18:49 Mikael Hietala

Thank you so much. This was very pleasurable experience.