00:00:05 Sara Pawlikowska

Welcome to Grin.eco podcast. My name is Sara Pawlikowska. I'm the co founder at Grin.eco. And today my guest is Dr. Andrew Wilson, who is the lecturer in environmental management at Glasgow Caledonian university. Hello, Andrew. How are you doing today?

00:00:19 Andrew Wilson

I'm very well. Thank you. How are you?

00:00:21 Sara Pawlikowska

So just before we dive into our topics or shall I say launch into outer space,

00:00:27 Sara Pawlikowska

I have a warm up question for you. in your opinion, what is the most fascinating thing about space?

00:00:34 Andrew Wilson

For me, I think the most fascinating thing is the vast distances which are, in my opinion, beyond comprehension. if we look up into the night sky at the stars, the light that we can see, is hundreds, if not thousands of years old. And that means it has taken light thousands of years to actually travel to the point where we can see it. So it means we're seeing [00:01:00] those stars as they were thousands of years ago. It's almost like looking back in time and even closer to our home. The sun, which is our nearest star. It seems really close to us, we orbit it, but the light from the sun actually takes about 8 minutes to reach Earth. So if the sun were to explode, not that it will, but if it were to explode, we wouldn't actually know anything about that event until eight minutes after it happened. which I think is testament to just how far away these, stars and planets are to us. It's really hard to think about just the vast distances involved, between objects in our universe.

00:01:43 Andrew Wilson

So for me, that's absolutely fascinating.

00:01:46 Sara Pawlikowska

It's truly mind blowing and puts things into perspective very well. can you tell us a little bit about your background?

00:01:53 Andrew Wilson

Yeah, absolutely. I started, my undergraduate at Glasgow Caledon University [00:02:00] back in 2011. and I graduated in, 2015. I would say really environmental science, that's really what I did in my final year at GCU. I looked into whether space based technology could be used to address climate change more from a practical perspective. But once I finished there and I graduated, I went. Abroad to do an internship at the United Nations, which I received some funding for through GCU through a Magnus Magnusson award, and I was an intern over at the United Nations and their offices in Geneva in Switzerland. my role there was really to try and quantify the carbon footprint of the U. N. system and then implement an environmental management system. And that led on to some consultancy work in the months that followed. But I decided after that I was going to come back to Glasgow on I started to do a PhD [00:03:00] in mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Strathclyde.

00:03:04 Andrew Wilson

so that was in, quantifying the environmental footprint of space missions with an aim of lowering those impacts. And that was very much built on the back of the dissertation I did at GCU. So I stayed at Strathclyde for a while. I also Developed my own company in December 2020, which is still up and running today and doing very well at the tail end of last year in september, I came back to gcu this time as a lecturer in environmental management So i've kind of gone full circle if you like and was used to be the student now the teacher

00:03:40 Sara Pawlikowska

I will definitely want to ask you about your initiative, the project you started. But when we talk about space sustainability, can you explain what kind of activities we should be thinking about?

00:03:53 Andrew Wilson

Yeah, so space sustainability actually isn't the most well [00:04:00] understood. topic traditionally in the space sector. space sustainability has tend to meant space debris. So space debris is essentially Bits of metal, it could be anything from, used rocket stages to, um, satellites which no longer operate, to small bits of metal that have come from collisions, even, a spanner which was actually lost from the International Space Station also goes to space debris. And this accumulation of space debris in orbit is a real problem because if any of these objects were to hit an active satellite, It would essentially destroy it, and it would cause that satellite to break up, causing more debris and that would then go and cascade, creating more and more debris as it hits more and more satellites.

00:04:49 Andrew Wilson

And what essentially could happen is it could leave space inaccessible for future generations. That's a very serious problem, and that is mostly What the space sector [00:05:00] refers to as space sustainability, but in reality, there's a lot more to it than that So of course on the other side, you've got the use of satellites to contribute to sustainable development on earth So how can we use space data or other technologies to actually advance?

00:05:16 Andrew Wilson

Sustainability on the ground and achieve the sustainable development goals But we also need to be conscious that and looking at those two pillars. There's also another You Dimension, which is what impact are these activities having to Earth's environment, so that be through the production of launchers spacecraft, the launching of the spacecraft and even, reentry. And I think there needs to be more of a perspective on each one of those three pillars are quite important. related. So a good example would be that if we put in up into space an earth observation mission to gather data on our climate, we need to be mindful whilst that might achieve that objective, we need to be mindful that we're not [00:06:00] causing a problem by, introducing more debris. So I might want to get rid of that at the end of the life. But if we do that and re enter it into Earth's atmosphere. We then pollute Earth's atmosphere with metallic compounds, so there's a bit of a trade off to be had there and,you could argue that isn't actually solving the problem, that's actually just changing the form of pollution from one form to another, so it's very interconnected and very finely balanced, so there's Various different strands we can look at when we're talking about space sustainability.

00:06:34 Sara Pawlikowska

the project that you're currently leading at GCU is very much focused on space sustainability.

00:06:40 Andrew Wilson

what we're looking to do with that project is to quantify the carbon footprint of the UK space sector for the first time. So carbon accounting itself isn't new, but when we see sectors report carbon footprint, particularly when we talk about aerospace, when we say [00:07:00] the carbon footprint of the aerospace sector, the actual space part of it isn't generally included.

00:07:06 Andrew Wilson

So there is a real, if you'll excuse the pun, black hole there with regards to that. So what we're looking to do with our project is to try and quantify what is the carbon footprint off the UK space sector? Where are the hot spots? So hot spots being in areas where there's maybe quite a high carbon intensity and how can we then reduce that?

00:07:30 Sara Pawlikowska

So we're looking at Anything and everything from the emissions from facilities, emissions from travel, emissions of products and I think that's very important in terms of climate change as the space sector. Really starts to ramp up its operations. we're hearing about, space ports in the UK. We're hearing about, ambitions to go to the moon to Mars. and, increasing launches every year. So [00:08:00] the space sectors impact is going to grow. So unless we get a good handle on this now, and try and decarbonize it as far as practically possible it could get out of control. So based on this research, what we want to be able to do is create a report that we can actually serve to the government, and hopefully they can use that in decision making or public policy to actually take on board the decarbonization solutions that we propose. That sounds very interesting. But to also shift gears a little bit because you have quite an extensive experience at Space Canada as an advisor. So can you tell us about that project?

00:08:39 Andrew Wilson

it actually goes back to my time as an undergraduate at GCU. So I did my dissertation, as I said, on whether space technology could be used to address climate change. And one of the people I interviewed at that time was the president of Space Canada. Space

00:08:58 Andrew Wilson

organization that [00:09:00] advocates, promotes and supports, research, education and commercialization of space based solar power. when I was actually over in Switzerland, got me on board to join them as a technical advisor. The concept of space solar power. So space solar power is a concept where you would essentially put solar panels in outer space to collect solar energy You would then convert it into microwaves to beam wirelessly down to a receiving site on earth to then distribute it For use commercially and the idea behind that is that Firstly, you have a lot more solar radiation in space than you would on Earth. It's a form of baseload power, so it's not affected by day night cycles like terrestrial solar power would be. And you can essentially point it to any receiving sites that you would want as well, assuming it's in geostationary orbit. So there's a lot of advantages to it. [00:10:00] And I was brought on board really to give advice on that as well. the other thing I was brought on to do was, to manage the international space solar power student competition. so that says an annual, competition that runs, that runs for students and young professionals. it's, ran for around a decade or so now. it gives students the opportunity to work on similar concepts and present this to an international audience.

00:10:29 Andrew Wilson

So. the finalists of our competition get to, present their findings at the IAC, which is the International Astronautical Congress. It's the world's biggest, space conference. And they get that fully funded for them if they reach the final. And I think it's a very rewarding experience because you get to see the students who. In some cases, couldn't have afforded to come to a conference of this type without that funding, being able to come and present their work to an international audience. And I think it's [00:11:00] a very important step in the development of students and young professionals. So it's quite a rewarding experience.

00:11:06 Sara Pawlikowska

I haven't really heard much about space based solar. So where would you say we're currently standing when it comes to implementing that technology more?

00:11:16 Andrew Wilson

In terms of space solar power, it's not a particularly new concept. It has been around since the kind of 60s, 70s, where a lot of effort was put in, particularly by NASA and to, the development Of different concepts, it then took somewhat of a hiatus, I would say, over the next few decades.

00:11:38 Andrew Wilson

And the reason for that was because I think it was generally considered that the launch cost was just too high. So the cost of launch per kilogram was too high. But what we've actually seen in recent years is that the cost of launch has actually. In fact, if you look at SpaceX and what they've done, they've actually [00:12:00] brought the cost of launch down by about 90%, and that has made the concept a lot more attractive to, different organizations. the UK has actually got an initiative called the Space Energy Initiative, which has got, I think we must be, it must be close to about 100 companies involved and other key stakeholders who are all interested in this concept. The UK government has also put a lot of money on the table to actually fund research into it. At a European level, there's also the Solaris program being run from the European Space Agency. And they're, again, also pouring a lot of money into feasibility studies and research in different concepts and there's work going Gone and other places as well, such as in the US and Canada, for example. so it's obviously not a new concept, but it's something that is now being very seriously looked at, particularly because we hit the 1. 5 degree threshold just a matter of weeks ago.

00:12:59 Sara Pawlikowska

it's a [00:13:00] promising, technology then. I want to ask you about Metasat as well. So you're the co founder does the initiative, I'm assuming you referred to earlier. So what is it?

00:13:11 Andrew Wilson

So Metasat UK is, a company which I co founded in December 2020 I always felt that I wanted to, start my own company, but what really gave me the push was two things firstly during my phd defense my external examiner told me after the defense that Space sustainability and the work you're doing with particular emphasis on environmental footprinting Is something that could go big and he advised me to start a company secondly, the work we were doing with Space Canada, particularly on the design of concepts for space solar power, had reached a point where we couldn't really achieve that as a not for profit. So what we decided to do with Metasat UK was start a [00:14:00] company that would look at space solar power. Generally, we design sustainable space systems, not just space, solar power, and we advise on the environmental footprint of facilities, travel products, and we're also the custodians of the Strathclyde Space Systems Database.

00:14:20 Andrew Wilson

So that was the, life cycle assessment database, which was developed at Strathclyde as part of my PhD. So it's coined between the company and Strathclyde. And that's just one of two LCA databases for space that exist worldwide. So we're really trying to Implement positive change. So allow companies to not just understand their impact, but actually how to manage it and therefore, get CO2 savings and other environmental savings as well as cost savings.

00:14:58 Sara Pawlikowska

Another interesting [00:15:00] thing that I saw on your profile is when you mentioned that we should be

00:15:04 Sara Pawlikowska

seeing our environment as more than just our planet. So how does our environment actually extend beyond our planet then?

00:15:12 Andrew Wilson

If you look at any general dictionary definition of what the environment is, it will say something along the lines of, the immediate surroundings in which a human, plant, or animal operates. Did you know that actually, since November 2000, that was the last time that every human being who has ever existed was on the face of planet Earth. And the reason for that is because the International Space Station which is currently orbiting above our heads at 400 kilometres in altitude, that has been continually manned since November 2000. So for me that certainly then becomes an environment in which humans live. But also beyond that, space is considered to be [00:16:00] what's called a global commons. So that is An area or a resource that is accessible to all but not ruled by any single governing power. So that is exactly what space is. But our orbits, including the one that the ISS in, is designed to do. Is also a critical resource because we are, of course, placing satellites up into orbit and what that means is that if we overpopulate our orbits, whether that be by putting too many active satellites there by putting too many by creating too much of a debris population, essentially, it means that they're going to be certain orbits or even space entirely might not be able to be used in the future. So how do we manage those orbits? It's very important because that orbits are also a critical resource. It's actually quite mind boggling when you see how much of our society today relies on space technology. when I say that [00:17:00] space industry operations could end if we overpopulate these. It really could send us back to the dark ages, butHistorically, we've seen earth is somewhat of a closed loop system, so we rely on resources from earth and not really much exchanges between earth and outer space. But there's actually An asteroid called 16 Psyche between, Mars and Jupiter that has so many resources that if you brought those resources back to Earth, sold them, and distributed the wealth between every single person on Earth equally, everybody would become millionaires. And it would actually crash our entire, economy. there is a wealth of resources available to us in space, so perhaps if we're looking to do a deep space, missions, or develop lunar bases, or Martian bases, perhaps we need to expand our horizon and actually try and use resources that are off Earth as well. so that kind of protects the resources that are already on Earth as well from being, further depleted.

00:17:59 Sara Pawlikowska

That's extremely [00:18:00] interesting. What would you say are some of the space activities currently needing the most work improvement in terms of sustainability?

00:18:10 Andrew Wilson

We need a complete paradigm shift at the minute. Across the space industry in terms of how we do things, because Even the space sustainability policies that we have in place, when you look at them through that three pillar approach that I mentioned earlier, aren't that sustainable. So if we look at the IADC guidelines, which essentially state that at the end of their life, satellites should be deorbited to avoid them becoming debris, you could comply with that guideline and be seen to be doing something that is quite sustainable. But like I said, all you're doing then is re entering it into Earth's atmosphere, you're burning metallic and electronic components up, and,creating another form of pollution. So that in itself is actually not [00:19:00] sustainable in any way. What we need to be doing is trying to ignite a circular space economy. So that, in my opinion, begins with being able to recycle or reuse, components spacecraft in orbit. Now, that is a long, long way away. We're nowhere near that point yet, but we really need to start thinking about this in terms of how can we best use the resources we have available to us? How can we, minimize our impact? to Earth and in space as far as practically possible. And for me, I think the only way that you can actually address this is by bringing, internationally, bringing people to the table. So it needs to have international dialogue. You need to have people sitting down and agreeing an approach.

00:19:51 Andrew Wilson

And unfortunately, that is going to also cost money. The question then becomes, how do you fund that, or who's going to be [00:20:00] responsible, how are they going to actually go about doing this? if there was an answer to this, or somebody could come up with an achievable approach, I think they'd probably win a Nobel Prize, but, it's something that seriously needs to be, addressed long term because how the space industry is at the minute, it is not sustainable. There is potential there, but we need to act before it becomes too late.

00:20:24 Sara Pawlikowska

I wanna talk to you about monitoring. So what kind of technologies we're currently using to monitor climate change from space?

00:20:33 Andrew Wilson

One of the best technologies is earth observation and earth observation missions essentially. tell us what's happening in our environment. So scientists can use this data to determine and prioritize areas of action. So if we're talking specifically climate change, measuring CO2 is quite a good example, and it's quite easy to do from space. essentially, you can measure this through spectrometers, which [00:21:00] measure infrared radiation, this is done because the amount of sunlight that's reflected off is absorbed by CO2 molecules in a given column of air. the rays of sunlight that enter the spectrometer on the spacecraft will pass through the atmosphere twice. as they travel from the sun to Earth, and then again as they travel from the surface of Earth to the instrument. CO2 and molecular oxygen molecules in the atmosphere absorb light at various different colours of wavelengths. So the light that reaches the instrument the second time around will display diminished amounts of energy at those wavelengths.

00:21:37 Andrew Wilson

So essentially we can calculate how much CO2 has been absorbed by the atmosphere and thus calculate the concentration in the atmosphere. But beyond earth observation. There are other key technologies such as satellite positioning, which is very important for, telling us where we are.

00:21:54 Andrew Wilson

And scientists can use that, for example, to track endangered wildlife, which can then be used [00:22:00] in policy decisions to keep, species safe, even microgravity research. So on board the ISS, If we're looking at kind of technology transfer, a good example of that is the water filtration system, which was developed on board the ISS.

00:22:16 Andrew Wilson

And that's now being really used around the world. But like I said, our modern day way of life is really dependent on space. So communication, phone access, internet access, and it's really, really important. But for me, what I also think is often undervalued, but is one of the most important is the inspiration of this.

00:22:37 Andrew Wilson

how many little boys or little girls around the world look at space or hear about space when they're kids and get inspired? And really through education, research, curiosity this is very important for advancing, the future of the field and getting more and more people into STEM subjects

00:22:58 Sara Pawlikowska

Do you feel like we're [00:23:00] utilizing the full potential of those technologies?

00:23:03 Andrew Wilson

Probably not, but I would ask, do we need to? So if we're looking at the connectivity, for example, where does the buck end? 5G, 6G, 7G, 8G, more? There is a fine balance to be had between living within ecological limits and having unlimited access to a resource, so space isn't immune to this. And I think it's also quite important to look at, you know, there's no single solution to something. if we're looking at the climate change example, it's not a case of us versus them, either space data or ground measurements. Space data has to be seen as a complimentary method. there's many different phenomena which space data can measure some with a high degree of accuracy, some with less.

00:23:51 Andrew Wilson

So but what it's important for doing is allowing decision makers to be selective and what data they can actually use. But are we using [00:24:00] it? to answer your question, are we Utilizing it as full of potential. I think we've got enough resources to do so, but we have to be careful not to push it so that we be beyond what is actually sustainable long term.

00:24:16 Sara Pawlikowska

So according to space for climate, one of the most frequently asked questions at COP 28 regarding space was, is space data accurate enough?

00:24:25 Andrew Wilson

I would say that space data is an extremely important aspect of monitoring the climate, you know, instruments, payloads that we have on spacecraft. they are generally Calibrated very thoroughly. And that has to happen because of how costly a space mission is. So there's normally months of testing, instrument performance so that everything's understood.

00:24:51 Andrew Wilson

And these instruments will be put on board with, a specific lifetime in mind. so that their potential performance is understood. Let's say [00:25:00] space is a harsh environment. So there are areas where, certain phenomena can affect the data. the importance of this kind of data has already been demonstrated. a good example of that is the detection of the ozone hole of Antarctica back in the 80s. Satellite data discovered that hole, they found out it was chlorofluorocarbons that were causing it. That then introduced the Montreal Protocol, which phased out these ozone depleting substances. And for the first time, something we didn't actually know in the past, the ozone hole then started to recover. And I think that's a very powerful example of how space data can be used to a very high degree of accuracy and to implement positive change. But in terms of is space data accurate enough, I actually think that's the wrong question to ask. I think the real question should be, are we actually using space data well enough? the role of Earth observation missions and geolocation missions, such as GNSS, for example, [00:26:00] they are already formally recognized as supporting the acquisition of the SDGs through the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. And recent research has actually found that space programs and technologies can positively contribute to all 17 of the SDGs. And Another bit of research found that 65 out of the 169 targets, which is almost 40 percent by the way, can benefit from the European GNS and Copernicus missions alone, just two space missions. But despite this huge potential, only 10 out of 232 STG indicators actually exist. Integrate space data into their measurement and to be clear. This isn't anything to do with issues of accuracy It's purely a massive oversight with regards to what we measure progress So I would say before we go complaining about accuracy Which actually I don't think is too much of a problem depending on what it is.

00:26:58 Andrew Wilson

We should be asking ourselves [00:27:00] Are we actually using what we have already in the best way we possibly can? And I don't believe we are at the moment.

00:27:06 Sara Pawlikowska

perhaps we have already more information than we realize.

00:27:10 Andrew Wilson

Exactly.

00:27:12 Sara Pawlikowska

I'm curious whether there are some resources that you would recommend for people to be able to connect the dots between space and climate a little better.

00:27:21 Andrew Wilson

Work that's coming out of the European Space Agency, for example, so through their clean space office and their CSR team. Space for Climate is another good resource, as is the Satellite Application Catapult, who I'm working closely with. we've also got the Scottish Space Sustainability Roadmap as part of the of Space Scotland's Environmental Task Force. This is, what we believe to be a world's first roadmap. nationally to try and achieve space sustainability. And that document is freely available for you to read online. And of course, there's a lot of research that I do in this area. So if anybody's interested, you can [00:28:00] see my LinkedIn or ResearchGate profiles, which have all my work listed there. Amazing.

00:28:07 Sara Pawlikowska

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.

00:28:09 Andrew Wilson

My pleasure. And thank you so much for inviting me. I've really enjoyed it.